Converting to Soy, after 18 months with paraffin

[crvella]

Hi all!

 

I probably haven't met most of you before because I've been posting in the General Candle section.  I've been working with paraffin, and playing with blends, for 18 months and I've decided it's time to take the plunge over to straight Soy. I have 3 main reasons for this

 

1 - I use tall jars, and this causes a lot of sooting by the time the candle gets to the end.  I'm hoping with Soy I will reduce or eliminate this

2 - With paraffin I find that the wax gets a little dirty looking over time (from the carbon), and discolors, giving a cheaper look to the end product

3 - I find using a wick big enough to get a decent melt pool, in paraffin, results in more mushrooming than it does for an equivalent melt pool in soy.

 

I realize this could come at a cost to the hot throw. Though I read here that this isn't necessarily the case.

 

The reason for my post is I'm struggling to determine the right soy wax to start with and I really need some help because my head is in a spin going through this whole process again after 18 months!  The main things for me to consider are (and was hoping people could comment on each);

 

1 - Hot throw is by far the most important aspect of the product for me

2 - Cold throw is a close second

3 - I do not want glass adhesion.  I'm happy that it does not stick at all, but not at the cost of the hot/cold throw

4 - I don't want frosting.  All clients we've spoken to don't like soy candles because of frosting, and for that reason alone they do not buy soy.

5 - I would like to use CDN or premier wicks if possible as I have thousands of them

6 - I'm not adverse to adding %20 paraffin if it means eliminating frosting or other issues, though would be good to avoid if possible

7 - I have no access to USA where I am, so addition of that is not possible.  I can get other basic vegetable oils.

8 - I start with %6 FO normally.  Should we start with %6 or do you typically need more with soy

 

I know there is a lot of questions there.  It's a scary change since we've spent 18 months developing a product with paraffin

 

I read all the time that people give up on soy and move to paraffin, so this scares me, a lot.  I don't have much time to perfect this as we've got to have product out by the end of June (7 weeks) and we'd like it to be the new soy based product.  I'm hoping our knowledge is transferable from paraffin to soy(?) 8-)

 

Sry for the brain fluff!  had to get it all out 8-)

 

 

[moonshine]

Well.....I can't speak for straight paraffin, I started with soy and have tried just about all of them and settled on 415 a couple years ago

For your specifications of what your looking for your not going to get all those qualities, there is always a price with soy

464 has great throw but it frosts

415 has great throw but without additive it will likely frost at some point

135 has very decent throw but it will frost

CB advanced doesn't frost but it doesn't throw

C3 I didn't work with very long but many on here have had great results with throw and keeping frost under control- for me the throw wasn't there

I'm not sure what you mean by no glass adhesion not all soy container waxes will adhere to the glass unless you use PB but I don't think that's a good idea for container candles - you could however try blending it with a container wax and see if that works in the adhesion and frost control....but in my experience with PB and 415 in melts.....it frosts eventually

Most of my candles do not frost but I use USA Along with heat and pour techniques that work for me in my environment- they wouldn't necessarily work for you this is where you have to experiment and try different things

I have had zero luck with 6% in any soy - I use 1.5 ounces per pound in most cases - I also use CD AND CDN wicks

Sooooo....my suggestion is if throw is priority to go with 464 or 415 and maybe play with adding parafin to it and see if you can get the qualities your looking for

Many say soy is so much harder than parafin but I don't know any different- I have been working with a parasoy and I want to pull my hair out - completely different worlds but I am also going to give straight parafin a try someday- I really would like to make pillars eventually

[8-GRAN-ONES]

I think if it were me..

the first thing I would see is what supplier is closest to you.. so you can pick it up or at least they are close enough it doesn't cost a fortune to have it shipped..

I think every wax will have its challenges no matter which one you choose..

[crvella]

That's a great help thanks Moonshine!

 

I have been told 464 too, but I've seen the level of frosting and it's not great 8-)  I do have a soy additive that one of our local guys sell.  it's apparently unique to them and their own blend, though it's a liquid so not sure what it is. I'm guessing something like coconut oil.  

 

What would 1.5 oz per pound be as a %?

 

Also, we only have CDN wicks here.  What is the difference between CD or CDN?

 

(Sry for all the questions)

[crvella]

I think if it were me..

the first thing I would see is what supplier is closest to you.. so you can pick it up or at least they are close enough it doesn't cost a fortune to have it shipped..

I think every wax will have its challenges no matter which one you choose..

Thanks for that.  

 

I've checked and I can get my hands on pretty much any Soy here.  Paraffin is limit, but Soy is good to go!

[8-GRAN-ONES]

You are lucky. .

To have them all close to you. .

I use 415..

I don't color my wax anymore. .but when I did. .i did have some trouble with frosting. .

I also have trouble with fruit scents having a fuel smell. .

[moonshine]

CDN Is the same as CD Other than the coating - the CDN is more geared for soy so you should be just fine there

1.5 ounces per pound is 8.57% but try lower and see how it goes for you- again many can and do use less- my sniffer must be broke because I don't smell a thing with less

[crvella]

CDN Is the same as CD Other than the coating - the CDN is more geared for soy so you should be just fine there

1.5 ounces per pound is 8.57% but try lower and see how it goes for you- again many can and do use less- my sniffer must be broke because I don't smell a thing with less

haha yes I think I have the same broke sniffer!  Thanks so much for your help!  I have both C3 and 464 laying around so I might do a side by side comparison.

 

What size wick would you recommend starting at for a 3" jar?

[topofmurrayhill]

In terms of CD versus CDN, the difference is the chemicals they're treated with. Every wick gets a soaking in something, otherwise it would just be a string rather than a candle wick. The more appropriate one for soy is CD, but CDN might be helpful with some fragrance oils so it's worth having around. But I really don't think you want to be hamstrung by having only CDN.

[topofmurrayhill]

Here's some additional info and a demonstration of the wick issue.

http://www.craftserver.com/topic/84644-cd-vs-cdn-burn-comparison-in-soy/

[8-GRAN-ONES]

When I first started making candles..

I tried every type of wick..

But my conclusion was cd was the best for me. .

[crvella]

Here's some additional info and a demonstration of the wick issue.

http://www.craftserver.com/topic/84644-cd-vs-cdn-burn-comparison-in-soy/

wow that is compelling!  nothing like a good example to hammer a point home 8-)

 

I will have to get my hands on some of these!  thanks so much for this!

[moonshine]

In terms of CD versus CDN, the difference is the chemicals they're treated with. Every wick gets a soaking in something, otherwise it would just be a string rather than a candle wick. The more appropriate one for soy is CD, but CDN might be helpful with some fragrance oils so it's worth having around. But I really don't think you want to be hamstrung by having only CDN.

Very interesting I have always heard and read CDN Is better for soy/natural waxes

"CDN wicks are flat-braid cotton and paper filament wicks specially coated to be used with NATURAL waxes.

CDN wicks great for soy candles or soy blend candles and are designed to reduce the corrosive properties of conventional CD wicks.

Southwest Candle Supply offers 7" CDN wicks in various sizes depending on the inside diameter of the container. "

This is from the source I get them and I have been told by wicks unlimited as well

I have always tested them side by side and with my jar- the 8 ounce square Mason the CD10 or the CDN12 are always the winners - I have like 3 very hard to burn oils that require the CD12- my experience has been that the CDN burn cooler- of my CD10 is not quite enough and leaves a lot of film- the CD12 will be way to hot towards the end of the burn and the CDN12 is the perfect medium....the majority are CD10 but I find it interesting CDN are described as better for soy or natural waxes and then reading your thread on it

[moonshine]

Top what is your take on the HTP- LX - ECO and Premier for soy

[chuck_35550]

Give me a parasoy blend any day. Its the best of both worlds IMHO. I use a 70% soy/30% paraffin blend that doesn't give me hair pulling fits because of this that or the other. The one element  you might consider is how heat affects your candles in the summer. They melt real fast in the sun. Have your customers complained about the candles appearance or other issues? I recommend sampling lots of waxes, wicks and jar configurations before jumping off the cliff. I was never able to get satisfactory results for me from any pure soy product and paraffin blends were ok but not entirely what I wanted in a candle. You won't regret the expense of testing everything out there. I blended 413 and 464 and 6006 and on an on and on before deciding. Good luck

 

Steve

[Crafty1_AJ]

If you hate frosting, I'd leave the candles uncolored.

 

I do generally scent soy at 9% or so.  There are fragrances that I cut back on, but the softer ones def need about 1.5 oz. per pound of wax for decent throw.  

[topofmurrayhill]

Very interesting I have always heard and read CDN Is better for soy/natural waxes

"CDN wicks are flat-braid cotton and paper filament wicks specially coated to be used with NATURAL waxes.

CDN wicks great for soy candles or soy blend candles and are designed to reduce the corrosive properties of conventional CD wicks.

Southwest Candle Supply offers 7" CDN wicks in various sizes depending on the inside diameter of the container. "

This is from the source I get them and I have been told by wicks unlimited as well

I have always tested them side by side and with my jar- the 8 ounce square Mason the CD10 or the CDN12 are always the winners - I have like 3 very hard to burn oils that require the CD12- my experience has been that the CDN burn cooler- of my CD10 is not quite enough and leaves a lot of film- the CD12 will be way to hot towards the end of the burn and the CDN12 is the perfect medium....the majority are CD10 but I find it interesting CDN are described as better for soy or natural waxes and then reading your thread on it

 

Suppliers and even distributors often get it garbled, but the manufacturer never mentions soy. They mention stearic candles in connection with CDN, but they say both CD and CDN wicks can be for natural waxes. Palm wax or high-stearic wax can be acidic where soy wax just plain isn't. A CD wick will fizzle in palm wax but work fine in soy. CDNs hold up much better in palm candles. I have burn tests with palm wax up here too.

 

I say use whatever works for you. I'm just pointing out that CDN wicks aren't made for soy wax as many have come to believe, and it's good to know that so your perceptions aren't biased by what reality is "supposed" to be. Either wick will burn soy, but you have to look at what you consider to be the important qualities of wick performance. I just got through burning 2 soy candles identical to the ones you saw photos of. They always had a nice flame, no soot, mushrooming at some points but that's life, and no wick trim was ever needed. Just lit them up when I felt like it. Those were CD 8 and 10, and no CDN could have done a better job. Maybe with some fragrance oils CDN would do better, but not because of the wax.

 

To make the information problem worse, we had a person with a habit of getting things off supplier websites and passing them around here as her personal wisdom. Happens to be the same person who suggested a ridiculous technique of making palm candles by obsessively jabbing at them to avoid a problem that didn't exist, made up a nonsensical soy tempering technique that accomplishes nothing, and explained to everyone that palm pillars are supposed to burn with a pitiful little flame that makes a 2 inch (maybe) tunnel down the center of the candle. 

[topofmurrayhill]

I understand that situation you described. Here's one that's similar in a way. It's a beautiful tumbler but challenging because it's square and because the glass is very thick and difficult to melt wax off of. That's a CD 10 and it really couldn't burn much better. The candle has been a pleasure from an end-user point of view. There's hangup on one side, but I know with a CD 12 it would be a little hell pit at this point. A CDN 12 is physically the same wick as CD 12. The chemical treatment doesn't make it burn cooler. If it's burning cooler, that's probably because it's burning a little wonky. In this case I'd rather leave it as it is. Life isn't perfect, but it's still a really nice candle and you can burn it for as long as you like (probably top to bottom) with no problems. The flame is a nice size and it doesn't grow or smoke. Basically it's like that nice CD burn in the test thread. I doubt I have a better wick in this line to put in there. If I really, really wanted to get rid of that hangup without fracking everything up, I'd probably just try a different wick type altogether and hope it's got the right size and still burns nicely.

 

[chuck_35550]

I used to get cdns that were heavily coated with a white waxy substance and were very stiff. They burned a little hotter than my cd wicks and they were just right for some fo combinations. I don't know what the process was but those wicks disappeared and the cdns being offered today are really floppy and don't resemble those earlier versions. I wish those others would come back.

[Crafty1_AJ]

Sounds like maybe the older ones had a higher melt point primer wax coating.

[moonshine]

I agree Chuck- they are floppy!

[crvella]

I used to get cdns that were heavily coated with a white waxy substance and were very stiff. They burned a little hotter than my cd wicks and they were just right for some fo combinations. I don't know what the process was but those wicks disappeared and the cdns being offered today are really floppy and don't resemble those earlier versions. I wish those others would come back.

We have these in Australia. I can also get the floppy ones and I plan on doing a side by side test with these to see what the difference is. My focus is really the mushrooming

[topofmurrayhill]

A power burn cleaned it up.

[Guest OldGlory]

I love Premier wicks. They have a light coating but are pretty sturdy. I get no mushroom in my tins with 464, dye, 6%FO load, and there are a LOT of different sizes to help you get the perfect wick for your jar.

[Crafty1_AJ]

Another thing to consider is to use frosted jars or tins to hide some of the appearance issues such as wet spots, frosting, discoloring, etc.