New soaper not doing so well....

[bfroberts]

Hi!  I am new to cp and I'm having some problems I was hoping to get help with.  My first recipe was just a pantry recipe...I used what I had in the house.  That recipe was:

 

15 oz olive oil

8 oz coconut oil

4 oz. crisco shortening

4 oz. canola oil

1 oz castor oil

 

I ran it thru BB's calc and soaped at 5% superfat.  I used CS Pink Magnolia Blossom FO which did accel. but was workable.  Poured into a wooden log mold my husband made.  The soap did overheat a little and a crack formed down the center, but I cooled it quickly and fixed the crack and came out with a lovely soap.  It is really a nice soap, for a 1st try. 

Since then, I've had 4 failed attempts.  I eliminated the crisco and canola and replaced with 8 oz. lard.  The rest of the recipe remained the same.  My second attempt partially gelled even though I insulated and all that. 

 

For my 3rd and 4th attempts, I used the same basic recipe but replaced the water with beer.  I put those in the oven on warm for a couple of hours then allowed them to sit in the oven overnight.  Both of those soaps look nice, but they are super soft and they seem to have some kind of skin around the bottom.  It's like a thin layer of soap that peels off when I try to cut them.  I think they will evenutally be OK to use, but I don't know for sure.  I realize I should have waited to make beer soap, but I had some extra beer...

 

My last attempt was just yesterday.  I went back to distilled water and again, only a partial gel.  I covered and insulated and I had high hopes for a really nice soap.  I was bummed this morning when I uncovered it and saw the partial gel.  I popped it in the oven on warm and I'm gonna try to get it to gel, but I don't know if that will work. 

 

I've ordered some PKO and other supplies, but I'm getting pretty discouraged.  Any thoughts?  Thank you in advance!

 

 

[Candybee]

Did you do full water? That would be approx 12.16oz of liquid and 4.472oz of lye according to Soapcalc.

 

Your original recipe is high in iodine and linoleic so it may be prone to orange spots which could appear at anytime. The recipe should produce a bar that is high in conditioning but will be somewhat soft. It should harden up after a week or two.

 

Its not a bad recipe but I would use less canola or switch it out completely with either the lard or crisco. Or even a combo of lard and crisco. I would also go with 5% castor if you want a bit more creamy lather.

 

Re the gelling. Its not necessary. Its a matter of preference. Some soapers swear it makes a harder bar or makes colors more bright. I have done both, gel and no gel and frankly prefer not forcing gel. If its gonna gel fine, if not, I don't worry about it. I know that some recipe formulations will heat up more than others so basically I just watch for overheating rather than worrying about the soap gelling.

 

Not sure what the 'layer' that peeled off the bottom is about. Never experienced that. It may be that the soap was too soft to unmold at the time. Especially since the recipe produces a soft soap and if you used full water it would be even softer. Sometimes a soap that is real soft may stick to the mold so that when you unmold it they come off the soap real easy. But that takes care of itself after a few days. Soft soap recipes just take extra time to harden up. Sometimes it can be a week or two for very soft soap to firm up.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Candybee

[topofmurrayhill]

You're not off to such a bad start. I can't comment about the beer soap because I don't do that, but I have a few thoughts on the rest.

 

As Candybee pointed out, not getting gel isn't a failure. The soap is the same either way. What I don't like personally is partial gel, because that can sometimes look odd. I'd rather have no gel or complete gel. If you want the latter, you might just need to leave it in the warm oven for longer. Maybe try 3 hours if 2 didn't work. It depends on a number of factors, so you'll have to figure that out.

 

The original super-soft recipe with a lot of linoleic is liable to be discoloration-prone, alkaline, and won't last that long. Your lard recipe is much better. You can take it to the next level by reversing the amounts of olive oil and lard. The fatty acid balance is pretty good that way and should make some nice soap. Make sure to soap that warm rather than room temperature.

 

If you start using Soapcalc, I urge you not to formulate based on the soap qualities numbers. They are BS, particularly the conditioning number, and have hindered a generation of soapers from learning.

 

Have fun, and post photos in the gallery. 

[bfroberts]

Did you do full water? That would be approx 12.16oz of liquid and 4.472oz of lye according to Soapcalc.

 

Your original recipe is high in iodine and linoleic so it may be prone to orange spots which could appear at anytime. The recipe should produce a bar that is high in conditioning but will be somewhat soft. It should harden up after a week or two.

 

Its not a bad recipe but I would use less canola or switch it out completely with either the lard or crisco. Or even a combo of lard and crisco. I would also go with 5% castor if you want a bit more creamy lather.

 

Re the gelling. Its not necessary. Its a matter of preference. Some soapers swear it makes a harder bar or makes colors more bright. I have done both, gel and no gel and frankly prefer not forcing gel. If its gonna gel fine, if not, I don't worry about it. I know that some recipe formulations will heat up more than others so basically I just watch for overheating rather than worrying about the soap gelling.

 

Not sure what the 'layer' that peeled off the bottom is about. Never experienced that. It may be that the soap was too soft to unmold at the time. Especially since the recipe produces a soft soap and if you used full water it would be even softer. Sometimes a soap that is real soft may stick to the mold so that when you unmold it they come off the soap real easy. But that takes care of itself after a few days. Soft soap recipes just take extra time to harden up. Sometimes it can be a week or two for very soft soap to firm up.

 

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me.  I did discount the water/liquid to 10.5 oz. for each batch.  My original recipe was just for fun...to see what would happen with pantry ingredients.  I knew the canola was frowned upon, and I didn't intend to use any, but I didn't have as much Crisco as I thought I did, so I improvised.  The ironic thing is that has resulted in my most successful soap so far.

 

Since that first batch did gel and that's my best soap so far, I was under the impression I should gel every batch.  I guess I need to rethink that theory!  I think my environment is just not conducive to gelling (it's always cold and drafty here).  Maybe I would have better results to try and prevent gelling.  I am kind of a perfectionist and I want my soap to look good as well as feel good.

I think the "skin" probably is from unmolding too quickly.  I was impatient...LOL. 

Thank you again for your help!

[bfroberts]

You're not off to such a bad start. I can't comment about the beer soap because I don't do that, but I have a few thoughts on the rest.

 

As Candybee pointed out, not getting gel isn't a failure. The soap is the same either way. What I don't like personally is partial gel, because that can sometimes look odd. I'd rather have no gel or complete gel. If you want the latter, you might just need to leave it in the warm oven for longer. Maybe try 3 hours if 2 didn't work. It depends on a number of factors, so you'll have to figure that out.

 

The original super-soft recipe with a lot of linoleic is liable to be discoloration-prone, alkaline, and won't last that long. Your lard recipe is much better. You can take it to the next level by reversing the amounts of olive oil and lard. The fatty acid balance is pretty good that way and should make some nice soap. Make sure to soap that warm rather than room temperature.

 

If you start using Soapcalc, I urge you not to formulate based on the soap qualities numbers. They are BS, particularly the conditioning number, and have hindered a generation of soapers from learning.

 

Have fun, and post photos in the gallery. 

 

So you think 8 oz. olive and 16 oz. lard would have better results?  What temp should I shoot for with that formula?  Thank you so much for your help!

[Candybee]

A basic recipe I started off with is:

 

Olive Oil - 45%

Lard - 25%

Coconut Oil - 25%

Castor - 5%

 

This will give you a great all around basic soap and you can find all the ingredients at your local store or Walmart. Look for the castor in the pharmacy. The recipe produces a creamy, white, hard bar of soap that lathers like crazy but is pretty gentle on your skin.

 

A good variation is upping the lard say 30-40% and lowering the olive or even lowering the olive and the coconut oil a bit. Using more lard produces more 'creaminess' to the feel and lather. By doing a variation you can also get a chance to see how they oils behave while making your soap and also in the conditioning properties or feel of the finished soap.

 

The higher the lard the longer the batter takes to trace. I found at 30% or higher I started having difficulty reaching trace. No matter. I just emulsified the batter very well with my stick blender and poured it into my mold.

 

Another thing I learned about soapmaking is you don't always need to reach trace. As long as the ingredients are mixed thoroughly or emulsified it will still saponify. If you don't reach trace in any soap batter you make the thing you want to be careful of is separation so be sure to blend it very well.

 

There are other things that can make your batter separate like some FOs but that won't matter whether you have traced or not. If a FO causes your batter to rice or oils to seperate it helps to stick blend the crud out of it before you pour it into your mold.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Candybee

[chuck_35550]

If you want a pretty much guaranteed gel, wrap your mold in a heating pad on low in a box full of blankets and turn the pad off after a few hours and don't look until the next day. I don't gel and my colors are nice and my bars are plenty hard. I've used Soapcalc for years and my results have been just fine. There are several good books out there for reading up on the art of soaping and a ton of Youtube videos that are from horrible to great but the best teacher is experience. Take a class, find a mentor in your area to soap with, but just take your time and learn what you like. I would be interested to know how the different batches behave in the shower and whether or not any of your soaps develops the Dreaded Orange Spots. I enjoy soaping but it can be a very harsh mistress and remember that soap fairies can show up at any time.

[topofmurrayhill]

So you think 8 oz. olive and 16 oz. lard would have better results?  What temp should I shoot for with that formula?  Thank you so much for your help!

 

Much better, without a doubt. The reason I mentioned temp is that many crafters make very soft recipes that are liquid at room temperature, so there's often not much point in soaping them warm. What I would consider a more balanced recipe can start to congeal at room temperature. Sometimes it might just get a little cloudy, which won't break anything, but I think more conventional temperatures are a good practice for recipes like this. You can do something like 110 F, and you can go lower if experience with a particular recipe suggests it.

 

 

 

But let's talk a little about these recipe modifications. Here's how the recipe looks for your first batch:

 

 

Notice in red we have one third saturated fatty acids versus unsaturated. We know this bar will soften when it gets wet and won't be long-lasting. In yellow we see 13.5% polyunsaturated fatty acids, which is a little high. You get those from using oils that aren't really for soaping. They don't saponify well and make your soap more alkaline, which can sting the eyes more. The polyunsaturates in combination with the coconut oil fatty acids (left of palmitic on the top chart) can be drying to the skin. The oleic acid is high, which can be slimy when wet and doesn't leave the optimal skin feel. Finally, at the top of the second column, this sheet calculates the soap qualities you'd see in Soapcalc, which suggests a very "conditioning" soap. That is total baloney.

 

Let's check out your next recipe:

 

 

Here we see more saturated fatty acids for a bar that holds up better under water, less oleic, and the situation with the polyunsaturates has been fixed. Soapcalc would say this one isn't as gentle on the skin, but it's actually better. All in all, a step in the right direction. Not quite a dramatic step. We can take it further with my suggestion of swapping the olive oil and lard amounts, like so:

 

 

Now that is looking like a nicely balanced bar of soap. I think you'd be overjoyed with it. With the polyunsaturated reduced to 6.2%, we can make a tweak to get a little more hardness and lather and it will still be mild. So let's take 2 oz of lard and make it coconut oil instead:

 

 

Voila! Pro soap. You wouldn't be stirring this one all day to get trace, and it won't be more alkaline on the bottom than the top. However, unless you add a something that makes it accelerate, you should have ample time to work.

 

HTH. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Candybee]

Top- where do you get the saturated oils info charts? is that from Soapmakers?

[topofmurrayhill]

Top- where do you get the saturated oils info charts? is that from Soapmakers?

 

Those are my own spreadsheets that I created to help with formulating recipes.

[8-GRAN-ONES]

Oh. .i am so glad you are posting again Top..

I have always loved reading your posts.. I gained so much knowledge and information

from you thru the years. .

[topofmurrayhill]

Oh. .i am so glad you are posting again Top..

I have always loved reading your posts.. I gained so much knowledge and information

from you thru the years. .

 

Thanks, nice to see you too, and always glad to help!

[bfroberts]

Top, thank you for the great info.  I'm going to try your suggestions today....now that I'm no longer thinking about dumping my supplies and finding a new hobby!

[topofmurrayhill]

Top, thank you for the great info.  I'm going to try your suggestions today....now that I'm no longer thinking about dumping my supplies and finding a new hobby!

 

No prob. This is always a voyage of discovery, and I haven't made those EXACT recipes, so you decide which one might be best. I would guess the second but can't be sure. They are probably both pretty good. If you like, you can compromise between them by subtracting just 1 oz lard and adding it to coconut instead of 2.

[TallTayl]

A good, basic formula that is slow enough for beginners, but quick enough for more experienced is the simple holy trinity: Palm, Olive, and Coconut

 

one third of each is common. Or 50% olive 25% coconut and 25% palm is a sweet variation.

 

The 50% olive, 2% Palm and 25% coconut is the formula I use for my Lather Lovers Swaps. We use additives like beer, goat milk, kefir, you name it and the recipe works faithfully for all, while producing a darn nice bar of soap.

 

You can also use the same exact formula with different superfat levels to see how tiny changes can make a big difference without breaking the bank.

 

I tend to think many newbies get started with challenging combos that create a perfect storm before really understanding the timing or how some variables can compound little problems. Simple formulas to start also help develop the "Feel" master soapmakers have. That feel helps them quickly improvise when things start to go haywire (acceleration for example).

 

ETA: You can replace Palm with Lard for another simple, comparable formula that is even more forgiving with accelerating ingredients. =)

Edited April 10, 2015 by TallTayl

[Candybee]

Ah yes... the Holy Trinity! I think every soaper should try it. You'd be surprised at how many recipes can be made using it.

 

One thing I have found is that the simpler the recipe usually tends to make some of the best soaps I ever made. I prefer soaps with 2-4 ingredients myself. A lot of soap I make has 6-8 ingredients many of which are purely for marketing. But when I reach for a personal bath bar I know the simple recipe soap is usually the one that feels best too!

Edited April 10, 2015 by Candybee

[Jcandleattic]

I tend to think many newbies get started with challenging combos that create a perfect storm before really understanding the timing or how some variables can compound little problems. Simple formulas to start also help develop the "Feel" master soapmakers have. That feel helps them quickly improvise when things start to go haywire (acceleration for example).

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree. Although it's nice to have and know all the scientific reasoning and effects of soap, I believe that as a beginner it may be too much too soon.

I apply the KISS method when beginning anything or advising on anything. 

 

For YEARS I never tried making lotion because all of the instructions were so technical and so detail oriented with so much unneeded information, with all the different levels of fatty acids and which component was good for what and who and where and BLAHHHHHH!! It was confusing, intimidating and soooo not necessary for a beginner. I wanted to know HOW to make lotion, that's it, not every little nuance of every little added ingredient down to the teeny tiniest minute detail. 

 

Once I got over that, and found a KISS method of doing it - NOW I am researching all of the other aspects of it, but at least now I KNOW what I'm doing, have a feel for how to do what I'm doing and now can comfortably add different ingredients with confidence because I know why I am using what, where as before I couldn't do that. 

 

I know I'm not explaining myself very well. LOL 

Edited April 10, 2015 by Jcandleattic

[Candybee]

I think that makes a lot of sense. Keeping it simple to begin with can be a very effective way of learning.

[TallTayl]

Like any other craft, you learn technique, then tackle more complex steps. Master painters start with strokes by different brushes. Cake artists master the tips. When you have a good foundation all the experimenting goes much faster - and often more successfully and more inexpensively.

I read all the time on facebook and other fora where people ask for a "tried and true" recipe for something. Could be soap, lotion, chocolate cake, bread, whatever. Many of those requests are to save the asker some cash. Tried and true by MY hands does not guarantee success for YOUR hands. Only by investing the time and resources will your hands develop the skill.

My hands are betraying me right now at the potters wheel. I watch videos and read forums for hours, but darn it all i can't seem to make my hands work the same as the instructors. If i spend enough time at it they will develop a skill and style, but no way would my work ever be the same as the instructors. And I am AOK with that.

[Jcandleattic]

TallTayl, that was exactly what I was trying (maybe unsuccessfully) to say. LOL 

When I was trying to make lotion, I didn't want a recipe per say, I just wanted to know HOW to make it. Finally I was able to take it a step at a time instead of trying to jumble everything together. Now I make a damn good (IMO - and everyone who's tried it) lotion base.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Jcandleattic

[TallTayl]

For lotion, i started the same as soap. One oil. One emulsifier. The heat and hold part at first seemed intimidating, as was figuring out HLB (you think SAP calcs are hard?) lol. Once i figured out how easy it is by actually making a few it's a quick dead easy.

I totally agree with your experience about how hard things posted on different blogs can seem!

[soap_nut]

So is there a better option than SoapCalc?  I'm a novice soaper that hasn't done a lot of experimenting.

[Jcandleattic]

So is there a better option than SoapCalc?  I'm a novice soaper that hasn't done a lot of experimenting.

SoapCalc is one of the better online, free options. If you are just starting out, I would say that yes, that is probably the best one to experiment with.

 

I use Soapmaker3 (a paid for software system that is more than just a lye calculator) but when I first got it, I made sure that it was comparable to SoapCalc. After a few adjustments, it was, and after a few weeks I was comfortable enough with it that I didn't' need to compare every change and nuance with each other. 

[Candybee]

I use soapcalc. It has a lot more information that others I have seen. Plus I like to print out my recipe and have the graph and all the calculations and soap properties on paper so I can use it while I am soaping.

[TallTayl]

I use soapcalc to verify calculations for my own batch sheets. All of them get within the same ballpark. Soap oils have a range in their SAP values. Each calculator uses a slightly different one in that range.