flame dies out half way everytime

[crvella]

Hi all. I'm new to this board. My fiancé and I have started making candles. We are using 1 pint wide mouth mason jars. We are using 4627 with 25% natural wax and %8 fragrance. I have used both eco wicks and HTP wicks. We are finding that the candles stop burning 1 inch to 1 1/2 inches from the bottom for a light fragrance (coconut and lime) and stops burning as little as half way down with a vanilla.

The jars are around 4 1/2 inches tall by just over 3 wide.

I have doubled wicked with up to 2x HTP73 In the light fragrance and 2x HTP93 with the vanilla. I've also used eco and double wicked up to 2x ECO1.5. I found the Eco's stopped Sooner than the HTP.

The flame becomes lazy and small and eventually just burns the wick down to 1mm and all but dies.

I've tried using a different wax, straight 6006a, and found the same thing. I find it hard to believe that I need to go higher than 2xHTP73 for any fragrance.

Can anyone possibly give some guidance? It would be so much appreciated.

[Vicky_CO]

 I would drop your scent load first. Try dropping back to 6% you might find that solves your problem. If that does not solve the problem and you do not want to go larger in you wick then I would say try a different wick. One thing you need to think about the further down a candle burns in a jar the less oxygen it has. 

 

Some FO are really hard to wick my Achilles heel is frankincense and myrrh. I was never able to get that wicked properly in a jar but had no problems in a pillar. Some times you do have to go up fairly high in the wicks to get them to burn.

[crvella]

That's great thanks Vicky!

 

I guess my concern is if we go up in size then the jar is going to get extremely hot.  

 

Would you expect normally 2 x HTP93 in a 3" jar is normal?  Also, you say there is less oxygen down the bottom of the jar; is this suggesting further that we need to go up a size or are you saying the jar itself will be a problem that cannot be resolved?

 

Thanks so much.  We've actually been at this for months now, and whilst we enjoy the challenge we are finding it a lot more experimental than we first imagined 8-)

[ChandlerWicks]

How deep is your MP? Is it getting too deep because of the dblwicking? With my candles, if the wick is too big, the MP gets too deep & the wicks drown. I would also try Vickys recommendation of lowering fO%.

 

It is hard, I'm still testing after a very long 3.5 years. I believe I know more about what not to do, then what to do, LOL!

Edited August 25, 2014 by ChandlerWicks

[chuck_35550]

The wick is designed to leave about an inch at the bottom for safety, so that's good. Vanilla tends to clog up a wick and usually requires a wick-up. I'm assuming that you are adding some form of soy to your 4627? You might try a larger wick instead of double wicking, unless you just enjoy the extra effort. I never did care for either type of wick you mentioned using but that's just me. Try a single larger wick if you have sampler packs of those wicks. I think an lx would work a little better for you or a cd maybe. You didn't mention the hot or cold throw you are getting from this formula. Good luck and welcome to the Board.

Steve

[Guest OldGlory]

I agree with the previous posts about cutting back on your FO load.

I love using Premier wicks. I have not found one yet that didn't give me exactly what I was looking for. I use 464 (soy) and 6006 (parasoy) and I am doing some blends of the 2 waxes.

Natural waxes require wicking up a lot of the time. If the wick chart I'm using suggests a 740 and I'm using all soy, I will test a 745 and a 750.

I add FO at 5.5% to 6%.

Wickit.net - I think that's the company you can order Premiers from and they will send you a sample package of Premier wicks. It's worth every penny. I buy my from Aztec.

[crvella]

How deep is your MP? Is it getting too deep because of the dblwicking? With my candles, if the wick is too big, the MP gets too deep & the wicks drown. I would also try Vickys recommendation of lowering fO%.

 

It is hard, I'm still testing after a very long 3.5 years. I believe I know more about what not to do, then what to do, LOL!

 

That's great I haven't thought of that.  I do get a 1 inch melt pool; but that soon becomes 1/2 inch then soon 1/4 inch; then the thing dies out.  That's on the vanilla (which is very thick), but I have a coconut and lime and it gets, on the first burn, over 1 inch then it levels out and has a good melt pool the rest of the way down. (2-3 burns in)

 

I've tried 2 x htp 72, 73, 83, 93; and they all perform almost the same, but have noticed the 83 goes the longest (not 93 oddly enough).  I've just poored and tested a single wick (CDN 24) to see if that performs the same.  I've run out of fragrance and waiting on the new load to come so I can test 2 x CDN 10/12 in the vanilla.

[crvella]

The wick is designed to leave about an inch at the bottom for safety, so that's good. Vanilla tends to clog up a wick and usually requires a wick-up. I'm assuming that you are adding some form of soy to your 4627? You might try a larger wick instead of double wicking, unless you just enjoy the extra effort. I never did care for either type of wick you mentioned using but that's just me. Try a single larger wick if you have sampler packs of those wicks. I think an lx would work a little better for you or a cd maybe. You didn't mention the hot or cold throw you are getting from this formula. Good luck and welcome to the Board.

Steve

 

Yeah the wick does have a high neck on it, but it's not getting close to the end of the neck.  It is an inch off the neck (at least), so in effect it's actually stopping 2 inches or more from the bottom.

 

I have actually switched to a CDN 24 to see how that performs; just for testing really.  I don't like the amount of soot a single large wick throws off, and I also noticed that the CDN24 doesn't give a big enough melt pool so would need to go up 2 sizes before it would perform.  This would then generate more smoke which I'm keen to avoid.  I know to trim, but customers don't and I'm trying to find a happy medium.

 

I'm getting a great hot and cold throw on that blend, it's actually performing very well.  I don't have access to LX wicks or CD wicks in Australia.  The best I can do is CDN, ECO and HTP.  Even the Eco I've had to have someone ship me from the US, but I found they were smoking and sooting and falling over into the wax a lot.  They also died out sooner than the HTP.

 

IGI recommend the HTP, and can see why because some fragrances work well with that wick.  Is there much difference between CD and CDN, and whats your thoughts around the LX?

 

Thanks Steve, appreciate the help and the welcome!

[crvella]

I agree with the previous posts about cutting back on your FO load.

I love using Premier wicks. I have not found one yet that didn't give me exactly what I was looking for. I use 464 (soy) and 6006 (parasoy) and I am doing some blends of the 2 waxes.

Natural waxes require wicking up a lot of the time. If the wick chart I'm using suggests a 740 and I'm using all soy, I will test a 745 and a 750.

I add FO at 5.5% to 6%.

Wickit.net - I think that's the company you can order Premiers from and they will send you a sample package of Premier wicks. It's worth every penny. I buy my from Aztec.

 

 

OK definitely sounds like I need to go down a bit on the FO load.  I use %8 of french pear and it stops burning too, but a lot lower down.  The coconut and lime goes all the way.  I suspect it's the vanilin content (the thick stuff).  So maybe i'll start by wicking down on the problematic onces.

 

Who make the premier?  I don't have access to those in Australia, so might have to find a website that ships to Australia; which very few do.

[Guest OldGlory]

I think you can try Wickit.net or you can try Aztec in Knoxville, TN. I think Wickit will send you a sample pack of all the Premiers.

What I like about Premiers:

1. Huge variety of sizes

2. They burn very cleanly

3. Very little mushrooming

I am currently in the process of switching over my 6006 candles from zincs to Premiers.

edited because I tried to include a link to Wickit

Edited August 27, 2014 by OldGlory

[crvella]

HI all

 

Just an update on this 'situation' 8-)

 

We have decided to do testing with the HTP wicks (As IGI recommend those wicks) by pouring 6 plain candles double wicked from 52 through to 93.  We've decided to go back to basics and see if we can eliminate the fragrance as the issue.

 

Will keep you all posted on the progress.  I wanted to exhaust the use of HTP before importing LX wicks, as it's a little expensive to bring in wicks to Australia from America (Postage gets you every time!)

 

Thanks again

[ChandlerWicks]

Have you tried 1 HTP1212 & keep it trimmed correctly? I didn't read all the previous posts, lazy this morning.

[boogieluv]

Lonestar Candle Supply has a page on types of wicking. They recommend a 60-44-18 paper core wick for containers 4 - 4.5".

 

Paper core wicks burn very hot, which yields a large melt pool.  Usually used only in large containers. Each wick has been cut to the specified length, primed with a standard wax (180°F) and has been crimped with a 20mm diameter x 10mm tall tab.

 

Size Recommended Application (diameter)* 60-44-18 Large Containers ( 4.0" - 4.5" )

*These recommendations are based upon the wick being used in a base paraffin wax. "Single Pour" paraffin waxes and vegetable based (soy) waxes generally require a larger wick and will almost certainly need multiple wicks to achieve a proper melt pool.

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2014 by boogieluv

[crvella]

Have you tried 1 HTP1212 & keep it trimmed correctly? I didn't read all the previous posts, lazy this morning.

 

Hi ChandlerWicks - We haven't tried a single HTP wick yet.  We are really hoping to double wick as we find the mushrooming, soot and self trimming effect works much better.  We also find a lot of customers don't bother trimming wicks and compared to other brands here in Australia, this is now the norm here (Not trimming wicks) despite the warning labels saying so.

 

We, as a last resort, will move to a single wick and see how we go.

 

This is going to sounds odd, but we have tried different containers, different waxes and different fragrances and we have never had a candle burn top to bottom (in this house) with the exception of containers we've used that are less than 2" tall.  

It's got us baffled!

[crvella]

 

Lonestar Candle Supply has a page on types of wicking. They recommend a 60-44-18 paper core wick for containers 4 - 4.5".

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks BoogieLuv;  The problem here in Australia is we are limited to only 3 wicks.  HTP, CDN and some generic cotton with that a supplier refuses to tell us what they are.  We are trying to use what we have at our disposal, or it costs a lot of money to import from america, or buy direct from the wicking companies at a minimum of 10,000 wicks per size per order.

[ChandlerWicks]

Hi ChandlerWicks - We haven't tried a single HTP wick yet.  We are really hoping to double wick as we find the mushrooming, soot and self trimming effect works much better.  We also find a lot of customers don't bother trimming wicks and compared to other brands here in Australia, this is now the norm here (Not trimming wicks) despite the warning labels saying so.

 

We, as a last resort, will move to a single wick and see how we go.

 

This is going to sounds odd, but we have tried different containers, different waxes and different fragrances and we have never had a candle burn top to bottom (in this house) with the exception of containers we've used that are less than 2" tall.  

It's got us baffled!

Well, that's the way it's been for me also.

 

If they don't trim the 1212, it can get very large & scary.

Even if the MP gets to 1/2" deep in the first few burns with dblwicking, keep going & see if the 2 wicks can handle the MP. If I have used 2 wicks that seem cooler & the MP not too deep, they have always drowned out in the 2nd half of the jars. Go all the way & keep checking the hotness of the jar.

[crvella]

Well, that's the way it's been for me also.

 

If they don't trim the 1212, it can get very large & scary.

Even if the MP gets to 1/2" deep in the first few burns with dblwicking, keep going & see if the 2 wicks can handle the MP. If I have used 2 wicks that seem cooler & the MP not too deep, they have always drowned out in the 2nd half of the jars. Go all the way & keep checking the hotness of the jar.

 

 

I'll let you know how this testing goes;  We've just started testing 2 x htp 52 though 93 with nothing but straight wax.

 

From your post, I hear your saying if the melt pool is too much the wick drowns out (So wick down); but if you wick down too far the flame extinguishes itself.  (damned if you do, damned if you don't)

 

Is that correct?

[boogieluv]

I'm a total newbie and have absolutely no experience with double-wicking or containers larger than 3" wide and deeper than 2" but could the problem with your wicks dying out possibly be due to lack of oxygen as the flame(s) get deeper in the container??? It may seem counter-intuitive, but maybe wicking down might be worth a try.

[ChandlerWicks]

I'll let you know how this testing goes;  We've just started testing 2 x htp 52 though 93 with nothing but straight wax.

 

From your post, I hear your saying if the melt pool is too much the wick drowns out (So wick down); but if you wick down too far the flame extinguishes itself.  (damned if you do, damned if you don't)

 

Is that correct?

Yes, if the MP is too much for the wicks to handle, they drown out. I think(LOL)!   But, if you can find the proper larger set of two wicks, they can handle the deep MP & do their job correctly without making the jar too hot. You have to go all the way to the bottom to find this out. Dblwicking is the pits for me. I'll get more then halfway, it's a thing of beauty & then kaput, drowning!

It could also be the type of jar & lack of air. I try to only dblwick jars that are close to 4" wide, because of the heat from 2 wicks.

[crvella]

This is an old thread but I have just gotten back to the testing of late (been busy with wedding plans) so I wanted to come back and give feedback on this and say thanks for everyones input.

 

We have not settled on CDN wicks for these jars / wick combos.  We are finding CDN 6 - 12 depending on the fragrance loads etc.  Though we use a 12 before moving to a 10; as the 10 actually performs closer to a 16.

 

We are also looking to test the premier wicks also; and looks like a 745 might be the starting point; or a CDN6 equivalent.

 

Next struggle is wicking a 3.5" tumbler with 4627 for the wedding.  my oh my why did we add the pressure this close to the wedding 8-)